Saudi Arabia sure sounds fun

[Telfer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7244579.stm

Yikes.

Sentenced to death for witchcraft. For casting a spell that made a man impotent.

So unbelievable that you need to read it just to be aware of how fucked up things still are in that country.

[Telfer]

Bonus story:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/07/world/main3800725.shtml

American woman arrested and strip-searched for going to Starbucks with a male colleague.

[robbersean]

They also banned shops from selling anything that was red until after this weekend to discourage the spread of Valentine's Day.

This is our ally, Saudi Arabia.

[frankandbeans]

you cannot respect other people until you understand them. you cannot understand them until you are prepared to turn off your standards of what is right or wrong and look at things from their perspective, at least partially, through your period of education. and then find commonalities to build upon.

you cannot have disingenuous, self-serving interractions with them and then expect to have clout or moral authority or respect as a given from them. to demand such things without earning it is....well, it's dumb. it's arrogant.

and you cannot have a rational, well-respected foreign policy when interacting with other nations, when all you care about is yourself.

my great-grandfather, a visitor to the peninsula, fought alongside the hijazis against the saudis when they were trying to take over arabia in 1922. (was it 22 or 24? i forget.)

i am from a sufi, of indian/pakistani background, and the wahabi saudis officially deride sufism and many of them tend to treat and think of pakistanis like nothing more than menial lower class servants.

they desecrate many holy sites. but conversly, everyone seems to acknowledge that they genuinely do try their best (in their way) to spend their money to accomodate the millions of pilgrims for hajj each year.

i am a moderately liberal, western muslim, so their standard governmental views on women and minority groups are generally repugnant to me.

but, my uncle lived and worked in riyadh as an accountant for an airline for over 20 years.

what's my point?

things are complex.

i don't like the saudi religious police. i don't like wahabism as a style of islam.

but when franklin d. roosevelt met with the king of saudi arabia aboard an aircraft carrier and established the relationship that we have with that country to this day--a continuation of a relationship the british had with them after they stepped back and let the saudis duke it out with their rivals for control of the country in 1922--there was a clear cut reason for it.

for a long time, and probably for mostly completely different reasons than most of you, i hated saudis. i hated the idea of them. but then, eventually i realized i was being childish. and intollerant myself. i mean, how do you hate a whole people? a whole country? how do you let yourself view something that big, as that small?

frankly, i don't think news stories like this one, and knee-jerk reactions to news stories like this one really help anything. i completely decry the injustice done to the people the news stories are about and hope they are freed and vindicated. but remember iraq. one day you'll be cheering along with a newspaper article decrying totalitarianism in a far away country. the next you'll be paying for bombs being dropped on their kids' heads and counting the body bags coming back from there goin' "Hey! How'd that happen?"

oh and also, not all saudis are "bad." the Al Faisal family, which is the family of the slain saudi kings from the 70s, the famous Shah Faisal, who was beloved the whole muslim world over for his defiance of the west in leading the arab oil embargo, are known for being moderates and a reforming force in saudi politics and social issues, such as a push for more democracy and women's rights.

faisal was killed by his nephew, who had come to america to study, and--or so goes the general idea amongst muslims--been corrupted here.

[Telfer]

Yeah, that's not what I meant at all.

I'm aware outrage can lead to bombs, but I still get to keep my outrage. I know not all Saudis are the same, but that doesn't change the horror that is the state of the country. For a while you hated all Saudis? Well, I would never hate an entire people. I'm not saying I'm better than you, but I think you're playing devil's advocate for your own sake and not anyone else's.

Are you saying the Iraq war is the fault of human rights organizations? That George W. Bush was only doing what outrages humanists wanted? You're certainly alluding to it.

This is government sactioned witch killing. There's no way to pretend that's okay. Of course it's complex, but that is about as bad as you can get. The only way to get worse is to do kill them in groups.

[Telfer]

Also, don't get me wrong. Your story is fascinating and I could listen to it all day. No sarcasm. Do you have a blog? I would read it.

I just feel you're confusing my opinions with your own, or someone else's. My opinions aren't nearly as interesting as your story, I just wanted to make it clear that I don't hate any one people, I'm just shocked by a world with such intolerance still in it.

[frankandbeans]

right on.

i think i just went off on the "these are our allies" comment, because i've heard that before as being a sort of political slogan against the establishment here. that look at who our ALLIES are, and implying that we shouldn't have this or that group as allies cause of specific reason x.

my point is more, "understand wahabism". people DO believe in things different than ourselves. if we say we truly respect the right of others to believe in things other than ourselves, then where do we draw the lines and how?

the cases in saudi arabia are wrapped up with the saudi understanding and practiced belief in a certain kind of "governmental" islam. to combat it, to...try to interact with it in a positive way, requires more than simplistic "right or wrong" thinking.

i hated them because i was an anti-wahabi, basically a sufi-leaning muslim, and i equated wahabism with evil. then i grew up and realized, "hey, look, people are going to believe what they want to believe. it's not my place to dictate what they should or should not believe. and i have to learn to get along with everyone."

that's the hard part. and then setting limits of right or wrong on them. it's a process.

the best bet in the case of saudi arabia is the al faisal family, or people like them.

so, yeah, decry the evil being done to individuals there, but keep in mind, as well, what the possible solution might be to the overall situation in the bigger picture.

also, it doesn't hurt to try and understand the religious context involved.

right or wrong, some people think a man died in jeruselem two thousand years ago for our sins and if you don't accept it, you're going to go to hell. and that there are rules to follow in your life on earth to avoid it.

some people believe that a prophet came with a perfect way of life in arabia 1400 years ago. and that he brought a system of living that can keep you out of hell. and they interpret that system variously.

some of these people apparently still believe in witches. or maybe it's just a trumped up case of murderous misogynism in disguise. maybe a bit of both.

this does not mean that we cannot ally our nation with theirs. and it has not meant that in the past. who we ally ourselves and why is a larger issue. that also warrants serious thought, i agree.

[Juan]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7244579.stm

Yikes.

Sentenced to death for witchcraft. For casting a spell that made a man impotent.

So unbelievable that you need to read it just to be aware of how fucked up things still are in that country.

Yeah I'm part Saudi Arabian and I'm glad I didn't grow up there.

[frankandbeans]

i got a friend who was lashed over there. fuckin sucks.