Careerists, Hobbyists, and Fine Artists

[ryandee]

If you had to give percentages of how many improvisor in the city of Chicago fall into the following three categories*

Careerist - People who consider improv to be an entry level position in a career in the entertainment industry

Hobbyist - People who enjoy improv for the sake of getting on stage and having fun and and being part of a social scene

Fine Artist - People who consider themselves performing a non-commercial art for artistic gains

I'm interested in this because it always shocks me how different people see the group of improv people in Chicago. Personally, I think it's about 50% Careerist, 30% Hobbyist, and 20% Fine Artist but people that I love and respect have different opinions.

*I realize that there is a very easy semantics trick here to say that people's hobby is fine art or that people hope that their hobby turns into a career. For the sake of the pie chart, let's not do it.

[Shallow Hal]

I believe 98%, at least, get into improv with the intention of trying to make it a path to the entertainment industry. After a few years, some discover that their talent isn't sufficient to propel them into television. This is when they make themselves (and others) believe they're in it for the "art".

I can't imagine why anyone would pull up stakes in whatever corner of the country they originated, and move to Chicago just for the love of an artform. Or pay thousands of dollars on classes and coaching and rehearsal space over the course of many years, (many times on the salary of a temp or waitstaff) if there weren't some chance of potentially earning it back.

I also believe in that almost every person in improv will deny they have any aspirations of fame whatsoever. (A fact that is directly contradicted any time Charna announces the presence of talent scouts in the audience, at which time friendships and loyalties are dropped and people trampled in the blink of an eye) But it's too dangerous to admit. Because what if you don't make it? Or what if others don't think you have the talent? You'll get laughed at, and be considered a failure. But...if you claim to be in it for the art, there are no standards to live up to nor goals to be achieved. It's a similar principle to someone not committing onstage. If I don't look like I'm trying, it'll be less painful to fail.

What's really sad, in my opinion, are those who refuse to just leave when they realize they can't improvise. Becoming a coach, or acquiring some position of authority in a theater or co-op is sadly the alternative for many who discover they have little or no performing talent. What's the shame in just moving on? Maybe there's something out there these people would be good at that they're missing out on because they cling so tightly to this community.

I also think there are those who painfully discover they don't have the talent to become successful, but they continue performing because they're used to the community, and... it's something to do. In my opinion, this is far different from having "the love of the artform". These are the hobbyists. But I don't believe a single one of them started out that way.

[nhoj]

Depends on how you define an improvisor. Is everyone in the beginning program at Second City an improvisor? If so, out of the 1500 or so people who are there, I'd say it's prob. more than 50% hobbyists and people looking for a social outlet. But I'd say that only about 10-15% of those in the program at Annoyance are hobbyists.

Or are we talking only those who are currently active on a team or in a show?

[Shotts]

I hope this thread turns into an article for TimeOut magazine.

[Mr. Keith]

I can't imagine why anyone would pull up stakes in whatever corner of the country they originated, and move to Chicago just for the love of an artform. Or pay thousands of dollars on classes and coaching and rehearsal space over the course of many years, (many times on the salary of a temp or waitstaff) if there weren't some chance of potentially earning it back.


I totally get where you're coming from, and in fact, never really thought of it like that (well, probably similarly in my moments of doubt).

But, speaking as someone who's personally financed a show with money I knew I'd never see again (unless tags stayed on the costumes), plus going on to the thousands of dollars of classes (and college), I can tell you that the reason I do it isn't for the money. I'm sure I could've spent all that money on a thousand other things and endeavors. But I can guarentee that if I did, all I'd probably be thinking about is how I'd rather be on stage, performing something I wrote (that's the best case scenario, of course).

Besides, I've seen the people who don't put in that effort, and they get up, go to work, go home, watch TV, and go to bed, starting it over the next day. The rest of the time they think of what they'd rather be doing. More likely than not, I'm going to end up that way soon enough, but I need to at least say I tried.

There is a sort of dementia to it, I know.

And as far as being famous, I think most people would rather be well-known and respected than "famous". If a scout from The Daily Show is in the audience, I'd probably get a little cutthroat (of course, I'd deny it, but that's part of being cutthroat). But if someone from a random reality show came by, I couldn't care less.

But, again, I totally see where you're coming from.

[Jordana]

I also think there are those who painfully discover they don't have the talent to become successful, but they continue performing because they're used to the community, and... it's something to do. In my opinion, this is far different from having "the love of the artform". These are the hobbyists. But I don't believe a single one of them started out that way.

I can't speak to anyone else's experience, but mine is this: If I have to choose among the 3 choices given, I would be in the hobby group. When I explain it to friends outside of improv, I actully use the word "passion"... But in no way did I ever start out expecting it to be a career nor do I ever see myself going down that path.

I know myself too well - I figured out at age 20 that I do not have the drive needed to pursue a career in the performing arts. Since then, I've never thought about it again.

However, I did improv in high school & college for fun (along with various other drama-related stuff) and, after a 5-year hiatus, when I moved to Chicago I wanted a way to meet people and have fun. Improv was the obvious choice.

I didn't move here for improv, but the people that I've met (including my boyfriend), the fun that I've had, etc... is what has kept me here. But not for career purposes! My career is the travel industry and it has been since I graduated college.

Travel is my true passion. But, when I'm living in one place for a long time, I needed to find something else to fill that "passion hole" and improv did it for me.

If I had to guess, I think 98% is way too high of an estimate - I know of quite a few other improvisors who seem fit my profile. But, I can't pretend to know what goes on in their true heart of hearts. It does appear that the vast majority of people move here for the "improv as career" dream.

And, yes, one of the reasons why it is my hobby/passion is because I enjoy the fine art of it. But, if I have to choose one of the 3 choices, hobby it is.

(Side note: If someone offered me the opportunity to perform for money, I would take it in a second! Of course, I would love to not have to sit at my desk 9 hours a day - despite the fact that I have a great job. But, I know that I do not do well pursuing art for money and have not thought about doing so since I was 20. I guess you could say I "started out" in performing arts hoping for it to be a career - but that was my childhood dream, starting at age 4. I don't count that as my motivation for pursuing improv in Chicago).

[sammy]

I think we should be mindful that goals and motivations evolve over time. You may have had a certain mindset when you started studying improv but over the years it may have changed; whether it be Bob from Accounting who initially took classes because it seemed like a fun thing to and then realizes that he could springboard into industrials and commercials if he took it seriously or Johnny Collegebits who came here to GET FAMOUS NOW and learns along the way that, hey, improv can be art.

People change. So do their ambitions and motivations.

[mccrackin]

I believe 98%, at least, get into improv with the intention of trying to make it a path to the entertainment industry. After a few years, some discover that their talent isn't sufficient to propel them into television. This is when they make themselves (and others) believe they're in it for the "art".

Without thowing out arbitrary percentages, I agree that most people get into improv with the hopes of making it big in show business. After a few years of practical education into the business of entertainment, most people readjust their points of view.

A lot of work goes into succeeding in show business, and very little of it is as fun as taking classes, doing shows for no pay, or in otherways refining personal craft and techniques of performance. There are headshots, auditions, marketing, networking, and loads and loads of rejection. It takes a great amount of time, energy and commitment. It's all part of the business, but it's not what most people think about when they get into it.

Many find the business part of show business to be distasteful, or they find they have no aptitude for it regardless of their individual comedic talent. Some of these people realize that they will not succeed commercially but continue to perform because they still glean satisfaction from performance. Others force themselves to do the work even though they hate it or hire someone to do that work for them because they still really want to succeed. Still others, sadly, become embittered and take the success of others as personal failure. These people are angry and petty and condescending; they equate success with pandering; and they remove the joy and fun from comedy.

Fortune and glory is what drew me to improv, but over the last decade, I've gotten a much clearer picture of what is required to acheive those things, and the opportunity costs of going after them seem far too great. So, I'm re-evaluating, which has nothing to do with my talent level as a performer and everything to do with managing my life.

[Schoolyj]

Guys - all this qualitative mush-mouthing is helping Ryan get his pie chart done.

Also - you're trying to divine how people would self-identify. That's dumb. Most everyone is going to say they think of themself as an artist first and if their art becomes a career that's great.

Career: 15%
Hobby: 80%
Artist: 5%

Can't wait to see the PowerPoint, RG

[mccrackin]

Oh, right. The pie chart.

5% - Career
5% - Hobby
5% - Fine Art
85% - Speculative

[Walleye]

I think we should be mindful that goals and motivations evolve over time. You may have had a certain mindset when you started studying improv but over the years it may have changed; whether it be Bob from Accounting who initially took classes because it seemed like a fun thing to and then realizes that he could springboard into industrials and commercials if he took it seriously or Johnny Collegebits who came here to GET FAMOUS NOW and learns along the way that, hey, improv can be art.

People change. So do their ambitions and motivations.


What he said.

[Run]

I think 99% concern themselves with what other people think. The same 99% spends countless hours debating, cheering, moaning, sulking, mocking, and expressing their apathy for the whole thing. I think 1% actually do whatever is necessary to accomplish their goals without being concerned with how others are going about their business. That 1% is who you are going to some day see on television or in feature films or running things successfully behind the scenes.

[dewidiot]

I think 99% concern themselves with what other people think. The same 99% spends countless hours debating, cheering, moaning, sulking, mocking, and expressing their apathy for the whole thing. I think 1% actually do whatever is necessary to accomplish their goals without being concerned with how others are going about their business. That 1% is who you are going to some day see on television or in feature films or running things successfully behind the scenes.

I'm in total agreement with this statement. I remember our creative writing teacher in college kept saying that we need to keep that shit on the DL. He told us not to spend so much time talking about what you're going to write because for some reason it fills that space in your brain where you would normally write instead, like junk food and then you don't do anything because you're already full from talking about it so much.

It's hard not to discuss being famous or making our dreams come true but I do think that the more we rattle off conversations about it, the less we accomplish.

Andrew

[sammy]

Oh, pie chart!


1%
To overcome my shyness

3%
Is my therapy

5%
To extend my personal empire of creepy

7%
Saw the Office. Heard sumpin' about improv. Ha ha, Creed is funny.

10%
To pick up chicks. Hot chicks. Want to do a two-man show?

12%
Is this Sluggers?

29%
'Cuz I'm funny, my family told me so.

33%
To make it big. Big time. Peter Gabriel big time.

[Miss Mason]

I think 99% concern themselves with what other people think. The same 99% spends countless hours debating, cheering, moaning, sulking, mocking, and expressing their apathy for the whole thing. I think 1% actually do whatever is necessary to accomplish their goals without being concerned with how others are going about their business. That 1% is who you are going to some day see on television or in feature films or running things successfully behind the scenes.

Run, I like the cuta your jib. Couldn't have said it better.

[Scol]

I don't like putting people into categories. It's a simplistic way of viewing things, and runs the risk of trivializing an individual's efforts.

Here are the qualities I believe you should look for in anyone you work with:

They show up.

They're on time.

They give their all.

They have talent. (There's a reason I list this last-it is essential, but far too often has nothing to do with the top three).

I'd rather work with a "Hobbyist" who possesses all four attributes than any "Careerist" who venally over-extends themselves in the interest of rubbing the right elbows and cementing their own status. And I don't look down on anyone with ambition. I've been in the profession for years, and have sacrified a great deal of comfort and security to do so.

But integrity matters most, and it can pop up anywhere. Please don't pigeonhole. All it gets you is a handful of birdshit.

[mudlark]

What's really sad, in my opinion, are those who refuse to just leave when they realize they can't improvise. Becoming a coach, or acquiring some position of authority in a theater or co-op is sadly the alternative for many who discover they have little or no performing talent. What's the shame in just moving on? Maybe there's something out there these people would be good at that they're missing out on because they cling so tightly to this community.

Shallow Hal, you should take it upon yourself to personally confront these people you deem as lesser talents so that they can take up another hobby that is less embarrassing to you than their performance abilities.

All that time spent lamenting the persistence of weak improvisers can now be used to focus on yourself and your talent, which is actually where it should be in the first place.

[ryandee]

wow, this got negative really fast, huh?

i didn't mean anything negative by wondering what drives people to dedicate so much time to this art form. i can honestly see why it could be taken as a negative through.

so, i apologize for bringing it up. i thought it could be something we could talk about at our day jobs, you know?

[DennisOT]

Or pay thousands of dollars on classes and coaching and rehearsal space over the course of many years, (many times on the salary of a temp or waitstaff) if there weren't some chance of potentially earning it back.

Golf. Cooking. Fly-fishing. Mountain biking. World of Warcraft. Guitar. Sailing. Etc. Think about it.

[Gilley]

I think 99% concern themselves with what other people think. The same 99% spends countless hours debating, cheering, moaning, sulking, mocking, and expressing their apathy for the whole thing. I think 1% actually do whatever is necessary to accomplish their goals without being concerned with how others are going about their business. That 1% is who you are going to some day see on television or in feature films or running things successfully behind the scenes.

I think anyone who would write something like this considers themselves part of the magical 1% and probably spends most of their time looking down on the unwashed 99% to validate themselves.

Seems like a very simplistic view of humanity to me.

People do all levels of improv and theater for all sorts of reasons, just like people play all levels of sports for all different reasons.

[stonelake]

I think McCrackin has said what I am thinking.

If you asked me before this thread, I would call myself a hobbyist. I think there were a few weeks there when I thought getting famous would be awesome and that I might actually have a shot. Now as regards fame I just really want to watch other people go through the process.

I don't have what it takes to "make it" in this "biz"- but I love improv more than I can say and I think that the two are only tangentially related. I think this work and play informs the rest of my life like some sort of marvelous mental training regimen. It inspires me in a way that not much else can. I hope to be watching improv for life, and I'd love to do it/teach it/coach it for as long as I can.

This probably means that I will do it too long, there are probably folks who think that I've done it entirely too long already.

But this is what "hobbyist" means to me. I hope that I don't get in the way of the "art", I enjoy the theory and the practice, and I hope that I can watch some of you guys on TV someday.

[Shallow Hal]

Shallow Hal, you should take it upon yourself to personally confront these people you deem as lesser talents so that they can take up another hobby that is less embarrassing to you than their performance abilities.

I have. They refuse to go away. It's sad, really.


All that time spent lamenting the persistence of weak improvisers can now be used to focus on yourself and your talent, which is actually where it should be in the first place.

You mean the 30 seconds it took me to post that? Yeah, it shouldn't take longer than that. Thanks for the good advice. It's really been helpful.

[Miss Mason]

I think anyone who would write something like this considers themselves part of the magical 1% and probably spends most of their time looking down on the unwashed 99% to validate themselves.

Seems like a very simplistic view of humanity to me.

People do all levels of improv and theater for all sorts of reasons, just like people play all levels of sports for all different reasons.

Gils- I read that as keep your head down don't worry about the other guy, do good work and karma will reward you in some way. Simple yes. -R

[stetsko]

As a "hobbyist," I'm going to point out the economic reality here...

Improv classes are cheap.

For those of us who don't want to make it as actors, who have good paying jobs, $250-$300 every two months isn't any sort of a bar to the process. As DOT noted, it's a heck of a lot less than I'd pay to play golf... no equipment, no real travel, no course fees.

My only bar to more classes and more improv is time. (Stupid career.)

As to the careerists/ hobbyists/ fine artists divide, I imagine it's about 40-20-40 when you talk to people and 5-80-15 when you get down to brass tacks about who's got the wherewithal to make it or talent to be an "artist."

For those that care about me, and I know you do, I gave up on all components of "making it" in entertainment at 18 when I decided I didn't want to try to be "cool" and try out for the "better" humor magazine on campus.

K.

[tonyblanco]

i'm still thinking about getting into improv, kind of scared of it actually, kinda seems like a cult to me. I'm a stand up comedian who was raised in theater, musicals mostly. I am something of a careerist, but i'm not at the point in my life where that has to be an immediate goal so for now my work, performance and otherwise is mostly on the 'art' tip, but really on the 'spectacle' or the 'please give me attention' tip. If i get into improv, it won't be because i think it is going to get me work doing improv, but rather i'll learn a new set of skills and meet a new group of artists with which to conspire and create. I'm into production and execution of ideas and collaborative performance artwork. I would love to translate that into cash dollars and national audiences, but for now am content to find awesome people and create neat things with them.

on that note, i need contestants for my gong show...