So, where are we going with this?

[Alderman]

A few months ago, my iO team was cut from the schedule. We had been together two years, and the vast majority of us had been on the team since 5B's. I was put on a brand new team with people who had not been on a Harold team before. It made me think about my earliest Chicago improv experiences.

I wondered, what did I think the Chicago improv scene would be like when I moved up here from Mississippi almost four years ago? What did I expect to be doing, acting-career-wise, by now? I honestly don't even remember.

I certainly had no idea how many other people had done and were doing exactly as I was, leaving their hometowns to pursue greater training and performance opportunities. I could not have known what a crowded house iO was, nor how infinitesimal the chances of performing at Second City.


The point of all this is to ask you all, were you as naive as I? In what ways have you had to revise your expectations? Have your goals changed?

[Biddle]

If it's any consolation, I think a lot of people come here with the same expectations and have similar experiences. I think that I, myself, felt the same way after I was cut from the IO schedule. (It's hard to remember back to that. It was 5 or 6 years ago.)

I think that the thing to do is not to confuse your disappointment with your current IO experience with a disappointment with improvisational theater. Because "improv" is bigger than any one theater or any one class or any one show. And the things that attracted you to "improv" had to be more substantial than "getting on a Second City stage" or "leap-frogging from this to SNL, then to movies", because there are more efficient paths to those goals, than the IO to SC to SNL to LA path.

If that was all that you wanted, then yes, that might require you to do some re-thinking of who you are and what you want and whether you want to keep going after it or not.

If, however, you're an improviser, and if doing the work and doing it well is more important to you than achieving these particular stepping stones in your improv career, then nothing much has changed, has it? You're still on that path. You can still do that work, whether you're on the IO stage or the Second City stage or your college theaters stage, right?

IO's not a bad place. It gives you good instruction, valuable playing time in front of big audiences and a feeling of confidence and reputation. Those things are good things. You just have to surrender yourself to the experience. You don't have much control over your situation and there's not much you can do to A.) be placed on a team or B.) stay on your team, once you get there. So, relax, go with the flow. Enjoy the good things about it and let go of the bad. Honestly, you'll get more out of your time there, that way.

Just don't be so hard on yourself. Or on IO. You've done the best that you can with the information that you had. Now you've got more nuanced, exprienced information. How do you want to apply it?

I hope any part of this helps, man. I've been in your shoes. I remember that feeling of "Oh really. So, THIS is how it is" and while that did suck, it didn't last for long. And I'm really happy doing what I'm doing these days. I wish Me-Now could've told that to Me-Then. That it's not a big deal and that there's still a lot of opportunity for someone who really loves doing the work. Take that as a message from Me-Now from You-Later. You-Later is very happy with what he does.

Cheers,
COB

[robbersean]

I think I've revised my goals, but not for the same reasons.

When I first got here, I think I saw improv as a means to an end. Like, I want to do this artform here in Chicago for a few years, make my bones, and then move somewhere else (NY, LA, Vancouver, wherever) and try to break into TV, movies, whatever, using that experience.

The older I get, the less the idea of being rich and famous appeals to me. I mean, I wouldn't mind getting paid to do what I do, and its certainly nice to be appreciated by people that you don't know, but when it comes right down to it, I really just want to do improv.

And that's my goal now. Not looking past improv to some further destination, but seeing improv as a destination in and of itself. Being in the moment I guess. I know that as long as I'm in Chicago, I'll do improv in some way or another, and if I do go somewhere else, I'll join up with whoever does improv there.

I think my perspective has bene colored by the fact that my experiences as an improvisor, though not without their ups and downs, have been overwhelmingly positive. I love all of the improv I do, and I don't regret the things that I've done. And with all that, I look forward to the future.

[Alderman]

Thanks, Biddle. I agree with all of what you say.

I didn't mean to imply that I am unhappy with iO. It is what it is. And actually, after my initial team was cut and reshuffled, I stopped worrying so much about the next schedule and where I would end up.

As for career aspirations, me-now realizes that there are people here and in New York and L.A. working very hard to get corporate acting gigs and TV commercials and small parts on TV shows any sort of foot in the door. I respect the hell out of them. I have come to realize that that is not what I want. I am pretty happy doing the evil office day job and being selective about my improv projects.

[Alderman]

The older I get, the less the idea of being rich and famous appeals to me.

My thoughts exactly.

[Run]

If it's any consolation, I think a lot of people come here with the same expectations and have similar experiences. I think that I, myself, felt the same way after I was cut from the IO schedule. (It's hard to remember back to that. It was 5 or 6 years ago.)

I think that the thing to do is not to confuse your disappointment with your current IO experience with a disappointment with improvisational theater. Because "improv" is bigger than any one theater or any one class or any one show. And the things that attracted you to "improv" had to be more substantial than "getting on a Second City stage" or "leap-frogging from this to SNL, then to movies", because there are more efficient paths to those goals, than the IO to SC to SNL to LA path.

If that was all that you wanted, then yes, that might require you to do some re-thinking of who you are and what you want and whether you want to keep going after it or not.

If, however, you're an improviser, and if doing the work and doing it well is more important to you than achieving these particular stepping stones in your improv career, then nothing much has changed, has it? You're still on that path. You can still do that work, whether you're on the IO stage or the Second City stage or your college theaters stage, right?

IO's not a bad place. It gives you good instruction, valuable playing time in front of big audiences and a feeling of confidence and reputation. Those things are good things. You just have to surrender yourself to the experience. You don't have much control over your situation and there's not much you can do to A.) be placed on a team or B.) stay on your team, once you get there. So, relax, go with the flow. Enjoy the good things about it and let go of the bad. Honestly, you'll get more out of your time there, that way.

Just don't be so hard on yourself. Or on IO. You've done the best that you can with the information that you had. Now you've got more nuanced, exprienced information. How do you want to apply it?

I hope any part of this helps, man. I've been in your shoes. I remember that feeling of "Oh really. So, THIS is how it is" and while that did suck, it didn't last for long. And I'm really happy doing what I'm doing these days. I wish Me-Now could've told that to Me-Then. That it's not a big deal and that there's still a lot of opportunity for someone who really loves doing the work. Take that as a message from Me-Now from You-Later. You-Later is very happy with what he does.

Cheers,
COB

I was thinking long and hard on a good answer but Biddle's is excellent, so I will just quote it.

Yeah, do your best not to look back and count the ways you would have done things differently while at the same time look forward in the most positive way you can. For anyone, if being a professional paid comedic actor (stage or screen) is what you are passionate about and want nothing else in the world... then keep at it and find ways for you to keep it a part of your life. Don't let the clock start ticking on. "Ugh, it's been four years... I thought for sure I would be famous by now". It really doesn't work that way. And certainly don't depend on IO or SC or some manic-depressive casting agent to create your career path for you. Don't waste years waiting for it to be handed to you. There are thousands of talented people all deserving of a shot. Unfortunately, there's just enough slots to go around. Create avenues and vehicles for yourself. And most importantly be honest with how much enjoyment you are getting out of what you are doing.

Trust me, EVERYONE was told at least once by someone back in their small town "We're going to see you on SNL someday I just know it". Well, don't be afraid of them being wrong. Shock them with your talent in some other way.

Just don't shoot anybody.

-Jonesy

[Biddle]

Confidentially, Between You and Me, With No one Else Peeking In, I think that you've found the key to a long, happy life in the improv theater. Working a boring ass day-job and performing in shows that interest you with people that you like. That's how I do it and it keeps me engaged and happy.

[Alderman]

If by "boring-ass day job" you mean taking screen shots and writing a software training manual, then yes.

[Telfer]

Well, I totally want to be rich and famous. I mean who on this board doesn't want Oprah to come to their low-rent storefront show and write them a blank check? So, in your face, artistes! I just know I won't be rich and famous from doing improv, partly because improv is no longer the best vehicle to get into TV and film, and partly because I'm not that good an improviser.

Anyway, I started at IO when I was 18. This was now around 10 years ago. Jesus Christ. Luckily, very few people remember me from back then, and the only people who do are hopefully nowhere near this message board. Also, most of them are famous now, and have washed me clean from their minds via expensive therapy. Basically I started all my scenes yelling "I'm a storm trooper!" or "I found the lost sword of medieval prostitute paladins!" and people would flee in terror.

The most amusing part of my start was that I signed on to be an intern not knowing it paid for classes. I'd seen Jazz Freddy in high school, but other than that I barely understood what IO was all about. I met Frank Janicsh (then the director of the interns) because we had the same commercial agent and he told me to sign up for an internship, leaving out the paying for classes thing. So I'm on my third week of bringing Mike Click ice buckets and he's like "so are you in the Sunday or the Wednesday class?" and I had no idea what the fuck he was talking about. I signed onto the Sunday class like, Saturday night before the first class. The point is, nobody is or ever will be as clueless and retarded as I was. And I'm still doing it. So y'all are fine.

[Hendo]

And that's why we called him "Baby Dan" Telfer.

[Biddle]

I don't know if it needs clarifying, but of course, I would be "rich and famous", if I could. If only because it makes some things a lot easier.

But that's just not my driving motivation anymore.

I can remember that it was a big deal, back in high school. But in college, I was more focused on getting laid and getting fucked up. And post-college, I was focused on recovering from all of that. And now, post-post-college, I'm focused on enjoying my time in the theater. If "rich and famous" is on my radar, it's not a very bright blip. Otherwise, I'd be in LA and having this discussion on the Los Angeles Guys Who Want To Be Famous Network.

There's a misconception that "wanting to do good work" and living the life of an improviser, is anti-success. I don't see that at all. Success as an actor, in film, stage or television is just another experience on the longer journey.

I'd love to hear theories on how those two ideas ("Being an artiste" = "Anti-Success") get intertwined, so often. Maybe that's a topic for another thread.

"Being in a movie" or "being on a tv show" would get put on the same list as "Performing at IO" or "Performing at an Improv Festival", namely The "Fun and Interesting Experiences that Being an Improviser has Brought To Me" List.

This is, of course, just how I got here. Your mileage may vary.

[Biddle]

Fuck, I didn't mean to dominate this discussion.

Sorry, guys.

I just think it's an interesting question. And I am engaged by all the things that you guys have said.

Sorry about that.
COB

[Alderman]

Yes, it's interesting how people who are still in Chicago doing improv can be perceived to have "failed" or "not made it". Why is it not seen as a valid choice? There is definitely an unspoken of hierarchy, the pinnacle of achievement being SNL or movies or what have you.

What I have come to wonder is, would I really want the Hollywood life, even if I were fairly successful? What does it feel like to do good work you're proud of and then find yourself doing a shit movie that you know you wouldn't even go watch if you weren't in it? That's got to suck.

[Biddle]

Yeah, I think that commercial success presents a whole different set of problems for a person. Yes, it gets you laid more often and gets you good seats at shows and restaurants, but then there's the indignity of doing different projects because of your image or because of a contract that you signed. And the constant hustle to stay relevant or marketable. That's all got to be a huge pressure for people in the industry.

I guess because some people from this town found success down one avenue, that's the model that others hold themselves to. But it's an arbitrary measure of standard. One door was open to Mike Myers, does not mean that door is also open to you.

I guess the most important thing is how you internally measure yourself. You know where you've been and where you'd like to go and how badly you want to get there. Since only YOU have been around this whole time, aren't you the best judge of your own progress? Doesn't your opinion matter so much more than anyone else's?

I've never been in a movie (beyond a fun, little bit of extra work), does that mean that I'm a failure? If so, who says? And how is that relevant to my actual experiences?

COB

[carebear]

I’m moving to LA after grad school. Not because I have designs on being rich and famous, but because the older I get, the more I want to make money from this and LA has the highest ceiling with regards to paying opportunities. Eventually I want a family. There’s just not enough time in life to work 40+ hours, and have an agent and do my improv and writing passion projects, and have a marriage and have friends AND have kids. So something’s going to have to give eventually and my last priority is my day job.

I loved my experience IO. It’s a world-class training center that is known and respected in NY, Chicago and LA. But IO's biggest impact on my life has come from the people I’ve met there--they are artistically inspiring. Being a part of io’s community of people has really matured my way of artistic thinking—at first though the training, my Harold team experiences and, mostly, from the stuff I’ve been exposed to that is secondary to the institution itself.

IO’s training center was a launch pad into the other experiences that I have sought out myself. And it is those self-made experiences that will contribute to my ability to make a living at this. But I’m not sure that IO *directly* has much of an effect on making lots of people famous. Its rare that they ever have industry people in the audience, it is rare that they send their actors on castings. The opportunity to be in a showcase for SNL is rare. To be fair, I do know a small number of people who have gotten an agent through Charna. I am not one of those people. A friend of my husband’s was interning at a casting office and got me in on an audition. The casting director then hooked me up with my agent. And then I got another agent through a mailing.

What I’m saying is this: IO, Second City are GREAT training centers. Beyond that , they are what you make of it. Any casting director in LA will favorably note that you’ve trained at IO and Second City but they will not care about your experiences there much beyond the training center. I know this for a fact. What they care about is YOU. What you bring to the table.

What I’m saying is you just have to be artistically true to *you* to the best of your ability without concern for all the rest. (Easier said than done.) You just never know what opportunity could come from the smallest thing.

All of this was only solidified for me when some people I know got an awesome LA agent and some awesome industry doors opened to them after doing their sketch show at a small out of town festival. After IO repeatedly turned down their show application, they produced the show independently in Chicago<ST1:p. Every night, they had about 15-30 people in the audience despite the fact that the show was so good. But they just did their thing, didn’t worry about any of that, and applied for festivals as a way to get their stuff out there. And what do you know, tons of awesome individual and group opportunities have come from this small independent project that hasn’t really had any institutional support. And even now, they’re having to work super hard to turn those opportunities into something more tangible. Success is opportunity meets preparedness.

I guess what I’m saying is that if you want something specific, the only way you’re going to get it is if you go for it yourself. Or just do the work passionately and do it well without a goal in mind and see what happens without any expectation in mind. Those M.O.s will probably get you a lot farther than if you leave it to an institution.

Carrie
=)

[Biddle]

Very nice, Carrie. Well-spoken and thoughtful.

Thanks for posting that.

COB

[carebear]

Thank YOU, Chris.

One more thing: You can get an audition for MadTV and SNL through your agent. You don't have to wait around for IO to call you up to be a part of their showcase.

And if you want to do this for a living and you don't have an agent, well, then you should make that your first priority. There is soooo much comedic work out there that has nothing to do with IO or Second City.

Carrie
=)

[schaefe]

At least you didn't get lost in the old Annoyance building and walk into the middle of Mick's advanced class when you were supposed to be downstairs in Dan Izzo's beginning improv class. It was a nice intro to improv.

Ouch.

Great line from Mick though:

"Ah. You are both supposed to be downstairs. Off you go. Forget all that you learned here."

Walked downstairs to Dan saying:

"You went into Mick's class, didn't you? So did almost everyone else. We gotta get some sort of sign or something."

[Hendo]

Carrie touched on this, and I don't think it can be stressed enough... there might have been a magical time when you could become famous merely from performing at IO or SC, but I don't think those opportunities are really there anymore. When I think of the people that made it, I think about what they did to stand out from the crowd. The shows they put up on their own. The risks they took.

A great example of this was Barinholz and Meyers, the two-man show that Ike and Josh put up when they got back from Boom. First off, Ike didn't get famous out of IO, he had to go to Amersterdam to get some heat. Secondly, they brought that show to CIF.

That show had a house PACKED with reps from Mad-TV, SNL, HBO, etc. It was amazing. All there to see this little two-man show that Josh and Ike wrote.

Not at SC. Not at IO.

I think if fame and fortune are really your bag, you've got two choices.

1) stay at IO or SC and become the BEST FUCKING IMPROVISOR ON EARTH. If you're not the very best, you might not get noticed in the crowd.

2) figure out what lights your fire, branch out on your own, and DO IT.


I've been improvising for 24 years this coming August. I can count on two hands the number of times I was recognized by a total stranger for my improv.

I've been emceeing the Belmont Burlesque Revue for almost 4 years. I get recognized ALL THE TIME. Unfortunately, the people that recognize only know me by my stage-name, Jack Midnight, which pisses off my agent and causes my co-workers to give me the eyeball.

Bottom line... IO, SC and the Annoyance are all great TRAINING CENTERS. You're supposed to graduate at some time. If you're sitting around IO grousing about the schedule and whether or not you're getting one of the sweet special showcase slots, you're probably missing the point.

[Scol]

We all know the traditional routes that an actor needs to take to earn money. I think most people who are attracted to improv desire something a bit different.

Be a creator. Write. Conceptualize. Execute. Every time I pass the Neo-Futuraium at 10:45 on a Friday night, and see the line stretching around the block, I think, "That's something I wanna do." When I see an episode of Deadwood or Curb Your Enthusiasm, same thing. Ditto for experiences like Being John Malkovitch or Frank's Wild Years.

There are ways to make money doing improv but they are very few and far between, and usually require short-form training (Comedysportz can help you there).

But improv in Chicago involves a huge pool of people who are burning up with creative desire.

I hated being cut from I.O. too. But that places zero limits on what you can accomplish.

In the meantime, enjoy playing, 'cause in and of itself, it's a great thing.

[Stacey]

I came here thinking, I'll give Chicago two-three years. In that time, I'll either live my dream, or realize I need to redefine my dream, in which case, I'll most likely finish "improv college" and find a nice town to start my own theater - with the bonus of the credentials and experience I earned while here. I'm older than most people when they come here, so two to three years was all I thought I could do.

As old as I was when I came here (33 yrs old) I was still incredibly naive, and probably still am in many ways. And soon after I got here, I looked around and thought, oh, crap. This is gonna take longer, I'm going to have to give it at least five years. But now it's been three and a half, and I'm done.

My dream has never been to be rich and famous, though of course, I wouldn't turn it down. I wanted to be a performer/writer on - and eventually a director of - the Second City Mainstage. I idealized that space and process far more than the things many other people long for beyond that stage (like SNL or MadTV). To me, that stage itself was the ultimate. This dream came to me when I saw Stephnie Weir in Psychopath Not Taken, what, 1998? I fell in love with the show and with everything Stephnie did. It blew my mind to see a show that was hilarious and yet smart and meaningful at the same time, and on top of it all, that pushed the art of theater. Holy crap! You can do that?

I was a lot like you and didn't realize HOW many amazing and talented people there are here. I didn't realize how tough the competition can be in the positive, talent way, or in the negative, backstabbing sort of way. To this day, my favorite and least favorite thing about this town is the people here. I love being surrounded by so many talented, smart, funny people all the time. It makes me smarter and funnier just by being around it. I've made so many wonderful life-long friends who share my values and attitude toward life and passion for this weird and wonderful art.

I've also been treated by some people in ways shittier and pettier than I ever had before. Yuck. As a naive person, I never learned the skills to avoid, ignore, whatever those skills are that help people harden themselves against crappy people and the crappy things they do. This is a huge weakness of mine. I've learned many of those skills since being here, but just like I'd rather live somewhere I can walk around at night with as little worry as possible and not have to ignore the ugliness a city inherently holds, I also prefer to be in an environment where I don't have to steel myself against the people around me in an emotional way, at least to this extent.

I figured I was either gonna be one of those people who flies to the top, or one of those people who works their way up the long way. I have learned that I am DEFINITELY am not the type of person or the type of player that flies to the top in this environment. I'm an acquired taste and almost everything I've ever accomplished has come as the result of hard work and one or two key people seeing something good in me and being great advocates (Anne Libera and Matt Hovde for me here in Chicago).

I think I could still get the things I wanted here if I still wanted them and was willing to work at it with all of my heart and soul for another five or six or seven years. Maybe things would come faster than that or maybe I'd never get there at all. Either way, I am ready to redefine my dream now. I've done the training centers, which I look at as "undergrad" and I did the Second City Directing program which was my "grad program." I've been the Assistant to the Director of the current mainstage show - my "internship." I've been a part of the Second City process, I get it now, I know how it works, I can do it anywhere.

And as for performing there - what I realize I really want is to be as good as Stephnie Weir. Every time I see her I am blown away, and she freaking keeps getting better! I find it hard to play the way I play best on the Second City House Team or iO teams I've been on. I play best with Firecracker and with Mark Sutton and with International Stinger and with my first, short-lived iO team Rumpus. With Stinger I get to play at the Playground regularly, but the others are hard to schedule and so I find myself frustrated on a performing level. I'd rather produce shows where I can play how I play best and am most satisfied, somewhere I can perform in front of a general audience and with people who aren't playing against the "gonna get cut" clock, but who are also playing for the love and joy of playing together.

And even the distant fantasies of creating and developing TV shows is less appealing now that I know more about the industry and how much the process is exactly like the corporate work I do in advertising/marketing. Things are mostly bad on TV, not because there aren't enough talented people trying to create great things, but because the system itself is so money-and-fear-based that great ideas are turned to mediocre or terrible ideas by the committees of people investing in them. You only have to watch Mark Burnett and Steven Speilberg's "On The Lot" to see that. And again, there are great things made by great people in the right place and right time, but that window is so small, and I'm not tough or hard enough to be one of the people who makes it through the competition.

So, where I am going with this? I'm going to live in a beautiful place where I can live my dream - my dream of creating hilarious, smart, and meaningful shows and films, with and for both adults and kids. It's gonna be hard and there are going to be obstacles and frustrations and craziness, but it will be worth it because I love Portland, and I love and trust the people I'm going to be working with, and because whether it will work or not will be based on the quality of the work we do and the response we get from the audiences watching, and not on how well or badly I play the "game" or on the judgment of arbitrary and political institutions of whether what we do is good or bad based on subjective and constantly changing criteria.

I can't freaking wait! This was fun to write. Thanks for asking.

[Stacey]

Now dominating way more than Biddle ever dreamed...

Also, before I came here I had heard Stephnie got hired at SC after her first audition and then went straight to Mainstage.

Truth? She auditioned and got turned down for seven years and finally got hired on a Tourco and then quickly promoted to Mainstage after a kickass performance in a show at the Goodman where she played something like seven characters in full, elaborate costumes and got rave reviews.

Naive.

[Biddle]

I thought that was wonderful, Stacey. And I'm sure it'll answer a lot of questions that people will have for you, as you get closer to your move.

Dominate on, sister, dominate on.

COB

[stevescholz]

Great thread, everybody. Just want to add a few things...

First, I remember and had the fortune of playing with "Baby Dan" Telfer. Dan, you always seemed older to me than you actually are...so kudos to you.

Second, I'm one of those who got an audition for MadTV through my agent. I was lucky enough in 2005 to have that chance, and when I got into the green room with everyone else I saw people from Second City, IO, other independent Chicago improv groups, and even an actor I knew hadn't been at IO for 7 years. From that round of auditions, MadTV hired Frank Caeti. But I suspect everyone got the audition through their talent agents because this audition was at a casting agency, not any theaters. (And this audition came 4 years after I was cut from IO.)

Third, wanting to be rich and famous is a great goal. And there are many ways to do that. Mostly, I suspect, it's by doing work beyond IO and Second City and other places in town (like Mark mentioned). People sometimes get paid to do improv (like ComedySportz, or the cruise lines that hire improvisers (Disney, the SC "Boat Co")) and some of that might pay a living wage. But when considering the business side of "show business," Carrie's right about making contacts and working hard yourself to get somewhere. The best chances you have are when your planning and preparation meet the opportunity to shine. And that can mean honing your other skills beyond improv (acting/writing/directing/etc.) and then trying for jobs using those skills as well. Or making your own opportunities.

Fourth, along that same line, there are countless groups and organizations that have sprung up in reaction to/as a result of training centers and theaters. Factory Theater's founders came out of Second City's Training Center, and when they weren't hired by SC (they did a show in response called "Second City Didn't Want Us"), they formed their own theater. Now, 15 years later, they are still going strong. The Playground is a more recent example, and they celebrated 10 years this Spring. Even IO Chicago (as Improv Olympic) was a reaction to Second City. Annoyance came about in reaction to both. The group Schadenfreude met in a Second City class. So if you and others like you enjoy what you do, form a group. You might even get your own shared theater space before long (congrats to GayCo!), or you might carry your dream to another city (congrats to Stacey!)

Fifth, be aware of your "timeline." What you look for today may be coming later than you expect. Tina Fey was improvising in Chicago back in the mid-90s, and now she's up for several Emmys for her own network sitcom. Cool, right? Very cool. And it only took her...13 years. So in four or five years, who knows? Maybe you'll be doing your dream job and having a life you want. Then again, you may be on that path and enjoying the road as you go. Knowing also what you define as "success" can help you keep a good perspective.

I've been reading several books this summer about acting, and one author pointed out that as an artist your path is unique. What you bring to your performance/work is truly your own thing. Your experiences are your own. And the chances you have now are different from what others have at any point in history. What you do is up to you. And, as this author points out, how you react to what happens to you in life is often the most important "improvising" of all.

Best to you and to all who read this,
Steve

[hixx]

Stacey, you've just about convinced me to go to Portland and live with Bob Ladewig!

I literally took classes at I.O. because I was lonely. I was tired of the friends that I had and wanted new ones, and boy howdy, did I make them. The friends I made in my first I.O. class are still my friends (bestest friends) today. I met everyone at I.O., seriously, thats where I met pretty much any improviser I've ever known. And I thank I.O. for that. I was so so SO upset when I got cut there, and honestly, I didn't even care about improv, I cared about getting cut and not being able to kiss boys there anymore. So interesting to look back on it now.

I did the classic tour then, hung out at Annoyance, kissed the boys over there and learned some stronger ways to play.

Annoyance closes, Hixx goes to the Playground, kisses some boys over there and ends up kissing one permanently.

But I learned somewhere mid-Annoyance, pre-Playground that it was about CHOOSING to do what I wanted to do. I have always and will always be in this for fun, not fame, not money...of which I would like both for a completely different skill (writing).

I will say one piece of advice that I got, that has never left, was through Mick. He talked about how easy it was to get stuck in Chicago improv. Because you can be doing a show seven nights a week, rehearsals every day, everyone's asking you to do shows...so you feel like you're actually "doing" something, when really...you're just stuck doing the same thing over and over.

But the way out of that is to do what you want to do.

I haven't performed in what is now almost years...although in a few weeks I'll be performing in Impress These Apes, because I WANT to be doing that. I picked, I chose (they chose me too, yay!), its my decision.

Now, I'm never stuck doing what someone else wants me to do, I'm never unmotivated by my choices, and that somehow, even if its just for my own little heart to covet, its going to mean something to me.

Meh, I dunno.

Hixx

[Schoolyj]

I love threads like this. This theme seems to surface about every 12 to 18 months on the various incarnations of this board. It always takes this same direction too. The original poster is encouraged to find/make opportunities outside of the big name places; independence is celebrated; riches (while not unwanted) are put in a secondary place to the intrinsic reward of creating and performing [or of kissing boys in the case of Hixx].

Then once the original poster thanks everyone for their encouragement and advice, the thread continues in this great public celebration of what we've done and affirmation of Why We Do It. It's almost like an old married couple renewing their vows: the shared history and the act of saying it out loud making an already strong bond stronger.

Whenever someone presents me with the question of where I'm going with this I tell them I honestly don't know. Each opportunity leads to the next. The only time I get unsatisfied with were I'm going is when I start comparing myself to other people.

[Biddle]

It's almost like an old married couple renewing their vows: the shared history and the act of saying it out loud making an already strong bond stronger.

It's soooooooooooo beautiful!

http://www.grandpaelephant.com/landon/stimpy.jpg

[Stacey]

Uuuuh, Margaret, you are more than welcome to come to Portland. I know you said almost, and you've just finished memorizing every piece of information about this city....

But I'm just sayin'.

ANYtime.

[Amharclann]

I moved here for a job. I am glad I did not move here for improv. I love Chicago and I feel at home here and improv helped with that but only because it provided a conduit for me to meet people. I don't play anymore and I don't think I will because I don't get the pleasure out of a show that I do from taking a class. I have only got kicks out of playing in jams. I think I rise to the occasion with abandon when I have nothing to lose but I don't do that with teams I have played with. I will never be a particularly good improvisor but I will take classes because I enjoy the experience. Too many people get disheartened because Chicago is not what they expect but honestly moving to Chicago to make it big in improv now is like buying a hot stock after the boom. If you get in on a stock before it is big you can make big money. If you build a theatre scene where there is not one already then you have a chance of being noticed. The big, big names made it before the improv market was saturated and those who followed in their wake rose to the top because they were the cream of the crop.

[Alderman]

Here's the original poster, coming in to thank everyone.

Seriously, though, I have so enjoyed reading your replies. Carrie, it is good to be reminded that one can do such crazy things as sending mailings to agents.

Stacey, I have never told you this, but when I first saw you perform at iO and did not even know your name, I thought you bore a strong resemblance to Stephnie Weir. This is not a bit. I honestly thought that.

I also find it interesting that you heard that story about Weir's meteoric rise. I myself heard such apocryphal stories, mostly from a guy I was on my first team with who had already been through the training center a few years before. He would say things like "So and so was put on a team when he was in Level 2." I don't know if it was true or not, but of course there are always people who advance faster. Why do we torment ourselves with these exceptions?

I totally get the admonitions to do one's own thing outside of the establishment. I made my first show proposal at iO a few months ago, it had a strong preview, we got four shows, and that was the end of it. A month-long run. I know that if I really want to continue doing that show, I need to take it somewhere else. And by God, maybe I will.

[bagnall]

ryan,
no one wants to see the funny buddies.

(but in response to the topic, i am of the philosophy that you should work like hell for something, and be open to change your plans when that other thing you weren't expecting comes up. because usually that other thing is pretty cool, and you didn't see it coming. but you'll miss it if you aren't open to the change. and it won't be there if you aren't already working hard. i think this applies to a lot of things besides improv/performance stuff.)

[Dave Ries]

I think that some of us get a great deal of "success" ideas planted in our brains from our peers and families. I don't know how many times I hear, "So, are you famous yet?" or "What are you going to do with all of this improv stuff?" or "What's your overall goal?"

When I hear these questions (especially the last one), I kind of freeze up. I don't know. That's my simple answer to everything. I'm having fun. I'm enjoying what I'm doing. I was having more fun when I was acheiving things and I wasn't pressuring myself to make money off of it.
So, I think I'm going to go back to that route. I'm going to do what I want to do and when opportunities spring from it, then maybe I'll be a little happier than I am with performing for fun.
I'd love to do this for my sole income, but it ain't happening yet. I don't have an agent. I never took theater classes. I'm a big, funny, guy (which is at least 40% of the improv community) in a big improv world.

I want to have fun. That is my goal right now. I miss some things I used to do, and want to get into some new things that will be great challenges and experiences. There's still a lot to do...

[Alderman]

It seems that when art becomes a means of living, artists find themselves choosing to do things they don't love doing because they are paid to do it. They would rather do something else, but they do what they don't like to pay the bills. Doing the paying project allows them to then do what they really want.

Like actors doing television commercials. Does that bother anyone else? I am not talking about struggling actors, up and comers, doing a toothpaste commercial on the side to get some exposure or get them through to the next job. I'm talking Sam Waterston for TD Ameritrade, Charlie Sheen for Direct TV, Jennifer Aniston for Vitamin Water. Fairly big names. As Bill Hicks said of Jay Leno hawking Doritos: "What, you don't have enough money, you f**king whore?"

[Telfer]

I think Bill Hicks was also reacting to the fact that Jay Leno was a brilliant comic who sucked at his new job of hosting the Tonight show. The entire stand-up community was disgusted by that on a vast level. He was suddenly a different person- at least in front of that camera. I think that particular Hicks quote lives in that context, not just as an indictment against commercial jobs.

As long as you're making money on one hand and doing what you love on the other, who gives a shit what anyone says about you? When I interviewed Patton Oswalt (eeeeeee!!) I asked him a bit about where his passions lay, and what he really wanted to do. He said he did everything that made money just so he could continue to do stand-up. Patton's doing very limited engagements with TV and film so he never has to give that up. Whereas Leno ditched all that to do the Tonight Show full time, then did commercials with his free time.

Bill Hicks was doing his job of calling out things that looked fucked up in culture. As an actor in general, who gives a shit what other people do? Make money if you want to, just know you'll be happier pursuing what you love at least part of the time. Leno gave up stand-up to make millions, then as a hobby made thousands.

It's possible to make next to nothing full-time, just local or touring stand-up or improv and what have you, then make millions on the side. Tons of people like Jack McBrayer, Matt Besser, what have you... they are making paychecks, but you can find them at any local improv theater on all-star night. It works a lot like it does in Chicago, only New York and LA actually have entertainment economies AND theaters. Chicago has no economy... but theaters in SPADES!

[berzac]

I just want to start off by saying "thank you" to ryan for starting this conversation. It's something I've been dealing with lately and it's nice to read about others who have dealt with it or are in the same boat as me.

I just got cut for the second time. It was heartbreaking because I loved my team. But we had drifted apart and couldn't make time to rehearse or make shows. I didn't want it to happen, but honestly, it was the best thing for me. I am in college for the 2nd time, finishing an English degree at Roosevelt University. I got engaged. I finally got a plan. I started living my life. I taught a high school group in California(my future father in laws) and it was like i was back in Charna's level one. My eyes were open, my heart raced, they listened to me and when I gave them a note, they did it and it made a noticeable difference. I knew that i might have been a so so performer, but I could be a really good teacher.

So, that's what I'm doing. I am grateful for everything I learned at iO and from all the great people I learned from. I don't regret anything i did or tried, because my path has always been different than everyone else's. But to be an actor and really, an artist in general, you have to hustle. Be charming to everyone, but not get too attached to anything because it could disappear in a second. You have to know the right people and make sure you get into the right places with the right people. But it kind of boils down to this: you have to love it. The touring, the hustle, the glad handing, all of it. The few people that I have known that made it do that. They love it and they can't do anything else. At least they think they can't.

I will still perform, but my heart doesn't feel the same way. I'm 30 and engaged and I should have made a bigger dent if I was going to do it forever. I don't regret not trying harder. It wasn't for me. I'm not retiring, but I'm defiantly not pushing it anymore. I'll leave that to the kids.

[carebear]

Three things:

1) There are peeps who got on teams in Level 2 before they made the "must have graduated" rule at io. But, that was the norm back then and not necessarily indicative.

2) I definitely don't mind it when big stars do commercials. Who knows why they are doing it? We will never know their real motives for needing the money, or working for a particular product, or with a particular director. I don't like to judge that. To each his own. Maybe they do commercials to afford the money and freedom to persue their passion projects. Hillary Swank made only $3000 for Boys Don't Cry, the movie that won her an Oscar. Some very big stars take similar pay cuts just to star in other low budget indie films. Hell yeah, I'd do a beer commercial so I could afford to do a great script that had a low budget. In a second.

3) This topic is awesome. Really enjoying it.

Carrie
=)

[Scol]

It doesn't particularly bother me when stars do commercials, because I do 'em (rarely, alas, but they've paid some bills over the years).

But to be fair to Bill Hicks, he was using the example of Leno, who could not in any way shape or form have possibly needed the money, to slam marketing in general. He also had a routine where he urged everyone in the advertising industry to kill themselves.

I'm enough of a hypocrite to want that commercial paycheck, and still enjoy hearing a righteous comedian stick it to our evil, consumer-based economy.

[ryandee]

I'm really enjoying this dialogue and something is kind of striking me.

Would you say it's fair to say that disappointment is a is a natural part of being a Chicago improvisor? Is it part of the path?

I mean, it's a part of all art and if you want to be "that way" I think it's part of life but I've never seen an artistic community where it is so much of the narrative as it is out here. Just an observation, you know.

Just saying. Work hard ya'all.

On a side note, I completely agree that the greatest part of Chicago improv is the people. There really is something amazing about the friendships that are made out here and it's OK to try things here, which isn't true of an environment with a huge economy. Oodles of art and dayjobs, right?

I hope that makes sense.

[carebear]

I'm really enjoying this dialogue and something is kind of striking me.

Would you say it's fair to say that disappointment is a is a natural part of being a Chicago improvisor? Is it part of the path?

I mean, it's a part of all art and if you want to be "that way" I think it's part of life but I've never seen an artistic community where it is so much of the narrative as it is out here. Just an observation, you know.

Just saying. Work hard ya'all.

On a side note, I completely agree that the greatest part of Chicago improv is the people. There really is something amazing about the friendships that are made out here and it's OK to try things here, which isn't true of an environment with a huge economy. Oodles of art and dayjobs, right?

I hope that makes sense.

Disappointment is a big part of being a human.

I will agree with what you are saying: Chicago is what it is because there isn't much money to be made. That's why I'd rather go elsewhere to make money. I wouldn't want to change Chicago for the world.

Carrie
=)

[stetsko]

I never expected to get anything out of improv...except (hopefully) friends. Five years later, I pretty much got what I was looking for. A couple of close friends, and a whole mess of other people who've been great to know, hang out with, and as the Hixx noted, occasionally kiss.

I never really did it for the art, although art is cool. I never did it to get "anywhere," although it's certainly helped my resume. At this point, I'd love it if I could be a lawyer who got to kick back and play every now and then.

Of course, I got to this point by long ago being realistic about my talent. I realized about midway through undergrad that if I
1) worked my ass off;
2) did nothing but write;
3) put my heart and soul into said writing; and
4) lived on peanuts and my parents largesse...
I could maybe someday be the third assistant writer on According to Jim.

So I said screw it, and went to do something I'm really pretty good at, which, happily, also pays.

After all of this, I sometimes look at people in the Chicago "scene" and think they should do the same thing-- take a good look at their mediocrity and replan their lives accordingly. Then, I'll see a show and watch someone who used to be cringeworthy become a rockstar, because they damn well care and they damn well want "it."

But that's the point, right? Unless you're willing to work your ass off, 24/7, you're only going to go as far as your natural talent will take you. And for 99.999% of the people in the arts, natural talent will only get you to mediocrity. Some small % of those mediocre people luck out, fit a "look" and wind up playing the annoying neighbor on the aforementioned According to Jim. But the rest don't. If you're not lucky, and you're not a genetic freak, you're going to need to work your ass off. Get your book out. Get your name out. Follow Carrie and get the hell out of Dodge. Write dozens of sketches that you'll never use, take class after class after class after workshop after whatever...

If you want to be an "artist" and you're not putting at least 40 hours a week into your "art," well then you should maybe think about switching that "day job" for a "real job" and that "art" for a "hobby"... And revel in that choice, I do.

K.

[stevescholz]

Disappointment is a big part of being a human.


And what you do with that shows how you can handle anything...improv included.

I was put on my first IO team after doing Level 3, thanks to the encouragement of Armando Diaz (the teacher, not the long form). At that time, there were students getting on teams even after Level 2 (Rachael Mason was one, I recall). And if I remember correctly, the entire team Valhalla came out of a Level 1 class. But that was, as Carrie pointed out, before performance classes and 5B's ever existed. The IO system once used to be Charna and Del. That was it. Two levels, and you were on a team. There were only a handful of teams back then, but that was what happened.

I agree with Telfer about Bill Hicks' assessment of Jay Leno. I met Hicks the year he died, and in chatting with him I can say he was a genuinely good guy. For all his rants and insightful observations about hypocrisy and the way we live, he had a heart. He cared about his work and about comedy and standup, so yeah I can see him being upset and even jealous of Leno. He also would do a piece about Leno literally blowing his brains out on live TV for having to interview actors like Joey Lawrence. Savage? Yep. But Leno actually enjoys what he does--something Hicks may not have taken into account. Yet Leno did say in the documentary Comedian that he feels like he can't rest, that he's still working to make it to the top of his profession every night he goes on the stage. So that's his drive, and I say good for him.

Regarding commercials, it's a funny system we have in the US where we see stars representing products and there's a negative reaction. I wonder if the general public forgets those people are in "show business." It is a business, and when I see some famous person for a product, if it fits what they're doing then I say way to go and make that deal. There was an ad last year with Brad Pitt for Heineken. I thought it was fantastic--Pitt's going out for a case of beer at the local mart in NYC, and the paparazzi follows him as if they're all part of an action adventure flick. So Brad gets who knows how much money, and Heineken gets the association with Brad Pitt. Both win. And even if you were a megastar, having "money in the bank" can be a good thing at any point in life.

Alderman, good for you to do your own show. And if you find found success with it, try it again. Chicago is a great place to put things up and try things out. While both NY and LA can expect more polished things, Chicago does have a lot of experimentation. A friend of mine took me to see a sketch show Saturday night. It wasn't all that great (I won't say which group it was), but I admire them for putting up their own show in a rented space for about an hour. They had a packed house, which is more than I can say for some shows I've done. So they're doing their thing, and more power to them for it.

Ms. Stetsko's right as well: taking a good look at what you want out of improv (hobby or profession) can help you focus. There are the McBrayers, the Bessers and the Dorffs of the world who work professionally and take time to do improv for next to nothing. Then there are people who form an improv group that puts together shows in the Western and Northwestern Suburbs, and they enjoy doing it a few times every other month outside of their day jobs. Who's happiest? I'll bet they all are because they're doing what they want.

Now, to apply that to myself.....:D

Steve

[MSutton]

I just want to chime in on a couple of things.

-Sam Waterston donates all the money he makes from those commercials to groups that fight for the environment. At least, according to TV Guide he does.

-Secondly...and I talk about this in my class a lot. People have varying reasons for staying here..or going away, etc. For me, it's about being who you are as an artist. I never moved to L.A. because, first I was committed to The Annoyance and making it whatever it could be. I had a space where I could create and do whatever I want and I enjoyed that. Also..I had very personal reasons for not moving away from the midwest.

So..I found ways to fulfill myself as an artist here. And..I figured out the real reason that I do this. It's not so much for money, or to be validated by Hollywood or the media or whatever. I do this, because when I'm not doing it...something doesn't feel right inside me. And as long as I'm right with myself...that's all I need.

I think people get in trouble when the sense of entitlement comes in. "I've been improvising for x amount of time so I should be at x place in my career". It doesn't always work that way and you're setting yourself up for more and more dissapointment and bitterness.

Yes...it's called show "business". But if you only treat it as a business and don't look for that which fulfills you in doing it....then it will just become another job.